Are people really unaware? Have I cracked the matrix? I can see the layout, the product placements, the displays at the tills etc., but I just see them for what they are and I’m not tempted. I think it’s because I use a shopping list and stick to it. I also walk directly to the aisle where the next item is, and I think that disrupts their planned flow around the store
yes once we see and understand these effects we are a little less vulnerable, but like optical illusions even when you know it's an illusion you still see it! likewise, for all the biases in our world.. we can measure them and become educated about them, but they still control us.. across so many levels, from the supermarket to the website, to our genetics, to our brain wiring etc etc.. we still just feel like we have free will... even when we dont...
I think my point is that the list, the mindset and the route brings the understanding. If you were driving to Anytown and see a spectacular view, you appreciate it and carry on - it’s not your destination. If you were just driving with no destination in mind, you would be more likely to stop, look and end up spending more than you intended to
Great discussion. A good counterpoint to the reading I have been doing on consciousness. I think of the space between the internally generated biological signal and our response, and what we do with it, as a reflection of our degree of consciousness/free will. Without consciousness there can be no free will. With it we have the chance to apply will, but I wouldn't call it free. ;-)
we certainly feel like we author, an idea, decision or action, but I don't think we have the feeling of anything otherwise.. except for maybe during mental health challenges
This article reminds me of the “senior thesis” I wrote in college in 1976, titled “Does B.F. Skinner’s Operant Theory of Behavior Undermine the Institution of Responsibility?” The conclusion I reached then seems apt here. It is obvious from observing what people do in the real world that holding us responsible for our actions influences our behavior. This suggests that, e.g., the prospect of punishment for a behavior that appears to a lay person to result from making a choice will reduce the frequency of that behavior. Even assuming that it is somehow “morally wrong” to hold someone responsible for an action when the action was not freely chosen, I think it makes sense to let ordinary people who serve on a jury decide when the free-choice line is crossed. That can result in instances of (arguably) morally wrong convictions or acquittals, but, for the most part, it works.
Consistent with this conclusion, I note that, even if a person’s action is determined eleven seconds (or some other amount of time) before they have the subjective experience of choosing the action, it may still be the case that knowledge of accountability and the prospect of punishment strongly influenced the action – that influence may simply have entered the causal mix eleven seconds before the actor was conscious of it.
Interesting article. Here's a question. Does the following behaviour fit in to the lack of free will theory?: When confronted at the supermarket checkout with some enticing chocolate, I say to myself one of four things: (1) I'm not going to buy that because I don't want any chocolate; (2): I love chocolate but I'm not going to buy it because I know it's not healthy; (3) I love chocolate but I'm not going to buy it because I know I'm being manipulated into it; (4) That reminds me, I wanted to buy some chocolate but I'm not going to buy that specific brand from the display because I know I'm being manipulated, so I'll go back to the chocolate aisle and choose one I really do want.
I do find that a few seconds of restraint and a little bit of self control tend to steer me past the majority of these kind of minefields. Not having enough money to be spending on random items most of the time helps too...
Probably, even if it is simply the outside force of not having money - knowing I'm on a tight budget is what makes me stop and think. How that translates as an internal bias (or began as one) I'm not entirely sure. And I wouldn't presume to think I can avoid all the various unconscious cues in the world, but in that particular situation I find a) I am more aware of them and b) it's a little easier to ignore them. I tend to be somewhat of an overthinker anyway - capable of spontaneous action, but generally veer towards a more measured approach if I can. Perhaps a bias created because of bipolar? On a manic turn it can be hard to slow down, and after a few... interesting... experiences, I have put a concerted effort into recognising the onset of those moods, and putting certain things in place to curtail any odd/strange/potentially dangerous behaviour. Fun to think about :)
yes I think it fits well, it's not about buying something, it's just one example of how we are influenced and manipulated daily and don't notice or feel it. You may have just been exposed to something else prior to shopping that might prevent you from buying, like in your example. Even if you decide to not go shopping, it is very hard to know which external influences pushed that choice and how far back they were.. right? Perhaps something a week earlier biased you? A month? or something years ago.. its hard to know.
I guess I have a hard time equating the fact that our actions and behaviors are influenced and shaped by our past experiences with having no free will or that those influences constitute manipulation. Perhaps it’s just a matter of semantics.
We mostly operate on freewill albeit in a limited way to what we can cjoose. The truth is that freewill is not an illusion but rather that being conscious is.
That is, consciousness is an illusion making us think that we are in control at the consciousness level. In reality, our whole existence, every decision we make, every move, every thought, it all plays out at the subconscious level.
I'm not familiar with your experiments where you can see up to 11 seconds ahead of what decisions a person will make but if it's similar to those of Dean Radin then I can assure you that you're wrong.
All I will say for now is this, "Consciousness is merely a experience of what has already occurred at the subconscious level on a strictly need to know basis being like watching the replay of a movie." That's it.
A radical shift was needed to change the perspective of the world from a geocentric model to a heliocentric model.
We will never be able to understand consciousness and the human mind before another radical shift takes place. That is that consciousness is not the center of our existence but that the subconscious and even deeper levels is.
Feel free to engage with me to either proof me wrong or learn the truth. I'm 69 and it took me more than 40 years to finally figure it all out.
We don’t all get taken in by ‘adverts’, freely break laws or lie!
It might be easier for some of us; E.g. an effect of Aphantasia?
But we often have to shop at checkout displays; as that’s the only place they sell diabetic sweets.
It’s probably just to save space; but does distort the figures; like pawn shops that had tables laid out with the cheapest records in town; which created most of their sales; so they became legal.
Are people really unaware? Have I cracked the matrix? I can see the layout, the product placements, the displays at the tills etc., but I just see them for what they are and I’m not tempted. I think it’s because I use a shopping list and stick to it. I also walk directly to the aisle where the next item is, and I think that disrupts their planned flow around the store
yes once we see and understand these effects we are a little less vulnerable, but like optical illusions even when you know it's an illusion you still see it! likewise, for all the biases in our world.. we can measure them and become educated about them, but they still control us.. across so many levels, from the supermarket to the website, to our genetics, to our brain wiring etc etc.. we still just feel like we have free will... even when we dont...
I think my point is that the list, the mindset and the route brings the understanding. If you were driving to Anytown and see a spectacular view, you appreciate it and carry on - it’s not your destination. If you were just driving with no destination in mind, you would be more likely to stop, look and end up spending more than you intended to
Great discussion. A good counterpoint to the reading I have been doing on consciousness. I think of the space between the internally generated biological signal and our response, and what we do with it, as a reflection of our degree of consciousness/free will. Without consciousness there can be no free will. With it we have the chance to apply will, but I wouldn't call it free. ;-)
we certainly feel like we author, an idea, decision or action, but I don't think we have the feeling of anything otherwise.. except for maybe during mental health challenges
This article reminds me of the “senior thesis” I wrote in college in 1976, titled “Does B.F. Skinner’s Operant Theory of Behavior Undermine the Institution of Responsibility?” The conclusion I reached then seems apt here. It is obvious from observing what people do in the real world that holding us responsible for our actions influences our behavior. This suggests that, e.g., the prospect of punishment for a behavior that appears to a lay person to result from making a choice will reduce the frequency of that behavior. Even assuming that it is somehow “morally wrong” to hold someone responsible for an action when the action was not freely chosen, I think it makes sense to let ordinary people who serve on a jury decide when the free-choice line is crossed. That can result in instances of (arguably) morally wrong convictions or acquittals, but, for the most part, it works.
Consistent with this conclusion, I note that, even if a person’s action is determined eleven seconds (or some other amount of time) before they have the subjective experience of choosing the action, it may still be the case that knowledge of accountability and the prospect of punishment strongly influenced the action – that influence may simply have entered the causal mix eleven seconds before the actor was conscious of it.
Interesting article. Here's a question. Does the following behaviour fit in to the lack of free will theory?: When confronted at the supermarket checkout with some enticing chocolate, I say to myself one of four things: (1) I'm not going to buy that because I don't want any chocolate; (2): I love chocolate but I'm not going to buy it because I know it's not healthy; (3) I love chocolate but I'm not going to buy it because I know I'm being manipulated into it; (4) That reminds me, I wanted to buy some chocolate but I'm not going to buy that specific brand from the display because I know I'm being manipulated, so I'll go back to the chocolate aisle and choose one I really do want.
I do find that a few seconds of restraint and a little bit of self control tend to steer me past the majority of these kind of minefields. Not having enough money to be spending on random items most of the time helps too...
but is something biasing you to practice that self-control? :)
Probably, even if it is simply the outside force of not having money - knowing I'm on a tight budget is what makes me stop and think. How that translates as an internal bias (or began as one) I'm not entirely sure. And I wouldn't presume to think I can avoid all the various unconscious cues in the world, but in that particular situation I find a) I am more aware of them and b) it's a little easier to ignore them. I tend to be somewhat of an overthinker anyway - capable of spontaneous action, but generally veer towards a more measured approach if I can. Perhaps a bias created because of bipolar? On a manic turn it can be hard to slow down, and after a few... interesting... experiences, I have put a concerted effort into recognising the onset of those moods, and putting certain things in place to curtail any odd/strange/potentially dangerous behaviour. Fun to think about :)
yes I think it fits well, it's not about buying something, it's just one example of how we are influenced and manipulated daily and don't notice or feel it. You may have just been exposed to something else prior to shopping that might prevent you from buying, like in your example. Even if you decide to not go shopping, it is very hard to know which external influences pushed that choice and how far back they were.. right? Perhaps something a week earlier biased you? A month? or something years ago.. its hard to know.
I guess I have a hard time equating the fact that our actions and behaviors are influenced and shaped by our past experiences with having no free will or that those influences constitute manipulation. Perhaps it’s just a matter of semantics.
We mostly operate on freewill albeit in a limited way to what we can cjoose. The truth is that freewill is not an illusion but rather that being conscious is.
That is, consciousness is an illusion making us think that we are in control at the consciousness level. In reality, our whole existence, every decision we make, every move, every thought, it all plays out at the subconscious level.
I'm not familiar with your experiments where you can see up to 11 seconds ahead of what decisions a person will make but if it's similar to those of Dean Radin then I can assure you that you're wrong.
All I will say for now is this, "Consciousness is merely a experience of what has already occurred at the subconscious level on a strictly need to know basis being like watching the replay of a movie." That's it.
A radical shift was needed to change the perspective of the world from a geocentric model to a heliocentric model.
We will never be able to understand consciousness and the human mind before another radical shift takes place. That is that consciousness is not the center of our existence but that the subconscious and even deeper levels is.
Feel free to engage with me to either proof me wrong or learn the truth. I'm 69 and it took me more than 40 years to finally figure it all out.
We don’t all get taken in by ‘adverts’, freely break laws or lie!
It might be easier for some of us; E.g. an effect of Aphantasia?
But we often have to shop at checkout displays; as that’s the only place they sell diabetic sweets.
It’s probably just to save space; but does distort the figures; like pawn shops that had tables laid out with the cheapest records in town; which created most of their sales; so they became legal.